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Will I hire Americans? No. Not until real progress is made on a cultural level in America.

Indians do teach their peers.
Work odd hours without question.
And they r not a threat to the managers.
They work more to cover up other 10 inefficient american programmers.

Truth will always be bitter. But let us be fair… with the facts.

How many community colleges run computer courses by who never did real projects. I am not sure about the colleges. How many NIITs you have in America. Why not? To be frank NIIT and other private institutions did better job than real IITs and IISc s and Universitites in India.

Why do u call them as computer education bachelor or masters degree when they cannot compete with a 3 months training from India.

Look at the root cause of the problem.
To me, it doesn’t matter you have a degree in History, Politics, Engg, or CS, if u don’t have a passion for programming you cannot do it.

Yes the Industry asks for .net , j2ee, oracle, sap, xml, javascript, ruby on rails etc…
Obviously a person cannot learn all of these in his life time. But take it or leave it that is the requirement for the Industry. It is going to get worse with the ever expanding open source.
How do you expect a manager to know all these and ask questions on them. He should be relying on others for selecting. A big coal company said all the J2EE guys quit. And how r they supposed to select a tech lead. Easy ..the boss decided to conduct a written test. As the dollar is falling it is better to look for job in somewhere else if any one is a real programmer…

Keep up the good work!

Employers want it to be easy to get new programmers now, but guess what? When their business turns down, they’ll dump us on the street again. You want more programmers: go ask other companies for lists of people that were let go in 2001-2005; find those who eventually found jobs in other fields and offer them money and training to entice them back into programming.

Or do like companies did in the 1970s — post jobs in the newspaper asking for recent college graduates with majors or minors in math and other quantitative subjects, offering to hire them into your IT training program.

High-tech is supposed to be a field in which unless you’re incompetent you _never_ have to worry about having a job.

During that time I’ve worked with many H1B workers. It’s unavoidable. It is the cheapest way to get bodies to throw at a project. Despite being illegal, employers do pay the H1B programmers much less. They use many methods to accomplish this, but the simplest is to contract with one of the many job shops that specialize in importing cheap labor.

So the Indian government doesn’t pay for degrees? News to me. I’ve known many Indian programmers who told me directly that the Indian government paid for both their B.S. in Inda, and for their masters in the U.S. I’ve never had any of them tell me that they or their parents paid for their degree. Since I have 6 H1B programmers on staff here I’ll check around again.

I’m not going to get into the quality of Indian H1B programmers. It’s just like any other pool of people. Some good, and a lot awful. It’s not important really and I don’t have a problem with the workers, just the system that allows a pool of low cost workers into the country.

H1B is not necessary. The complaints of a shortage of qualified people is entirely fabricated by the businesses that want to lower costs.

and must take pay cuts, gradually and eventually, to keep their programming jobs home-country-based

If you look at this idea in reverse, you must as a programmer figure out how to increase your value so that you can get pay increases and keep your programming job.

You can for example look at it as the difference between a laborer at a job site who is merely assembling things to some plan vs that of an architect who understands how everything fits together, the business implications, and is able to tie together disparate ideas into the overall design.

As an aside, I have worked with a number of outsourced programmers over the last 5 years in India, and generally the quality of their work has been pretty terrible. You’re basically throwing man power at a problem because it’s cheap rather than relying on a smaller more skilled workforce.

Even if the quality of work was equal, there’s a great number of benefits of having the people working on your code be well paid, happy people who are sticking around for the long term. Otherwise it’s just like the prisoner’s dilemma, both sides are trying to maximize their gain without concern for the other side.

I wanted to avoid discussions like tell me what BCNF stands for and means. I’ve been burned by employees would could answer every technical question like that, and had no ability to apply it.

In summary, it was a short test of the skill I was hiring them for. One candidate rose to the top. Half were not even barely qualified.

Hiring a programmer, I look for experience with multiple languages, the ability to understand the business, and maybe some pseudo-code of a solution to a common problem. Then I usually hit them with a really hard question about anything on their resume listed as “expert”. You should see the jaws drop when you ask questions like “So how do you solve the occupation time of a node in a Markov chain? You listed yourself as expert in them on your resume.”

These drummed-up “shortages” are nothing new to America, to industrial England, to the modern world that is ruled by money.

But we must realize that there is nothing here at work except for the IRON LAW:

wages tend towards a minimum level corresponding to the subsistence needs of the workers

If a worker wishes to earn a higher wage, then that worker needs to find a higher-value ecosystem to contribute to.

MS and most big companies pay H1-B at the same level as you, Americans.

Here’s what happened in the actual work-field:

Americans are not loyal to their companies while Asians (including Indians) have a different point of view in terms of loyalty.

Americans are going where the money go whereas Asians prefer a good relationship with co-workers even if the job might be boring or whatsoever.

I’m not saying that Americans are bad, it’s just a different perspective. While you guys are looking for instant-gold via Startup (a.k.a leaving your old company) during any rush, Asians are happy to have a “stable” job.

Just use e.g. XOR swap repeatedly.
for i=0..n/2:
swap(i,n-i)
Then again, there’s no point in doing it this way so the question is still stupid.

And for those cheap laborers up here, party while it last, soon enough we’ll protect our jobs and salary ;>

1. Dive into their best language that you understand well.

I strongly agree with you that specific knowledge is kind of stupid to test as it can be quickly acquired (though I think it takes you at least two years to get solid results from C++ and at least a year for Java, no matter how smart you are).

However, I also think that in order to be a solid programmer, there has to be one language that you’re an expert in — that you can discuss subtleties.

So find out the candidate’s strongest language, get your strongest programmer in that language, and get them to ask questions — big questions that you can chat about, perhaps leading to a more specific question.

In Java, for example, “how do threads work?” is a great question. Let the candidate take the lead. “Imagine I don’t know anything about threads and describe them to me.”

You might be leading to a toy design question. “Imagine this simple program with x, y, z [things like what your business uses.] How would you design the threading?”

2. Find specific expert knowledge and test it.

Again, while I think testing specific knowledge is bad, finding out areas of knowledge where the candidate is supposed to be expert and asking about those is fine. For example, in Java you might say, “What do you know about collection classes?” or even “What are your best-known Java packages?”

3. algorithms and fundamentals.

I agree with you that puzzle questions are stupid.

But I don’t think a question like “find loops in a graph” is at all unreasonable to expect a candidate to solve in an interview — particularly if you specify the problem to be “find ONE loop in a graph” or even “find out IF there are any loops in an undirected graph”.

This is the sort of question you get in school — but it’s also “fundamentals”. You should always be able to solve such problems pretty handily. It’s like asking a pianist to play scales at an audition — they should be able to do them flawlessly.

It’s not like I remembered the solution to this problem — there are only a few ways to do things — in this case you traverse the graph until you run into the same node a second time, which means that a loop exists.

As for reversing an array without a temporary variable — that’s impossible in general as stated though of course there are language tricks that hide the temporary variable from you: eg, in Python

la = len(array)
for i in xrange(0, la / 2):
array[i], array[la - i - 1] = array[la - i - 1], array[i]

pretends not to have a temporary variable but behind the scenes Python is creating two of them for you.

a) Maybe I should be more specific. Restricting the number of programmers coming into the US results in US companies hiring them overseas. Or maybe “izaak” is suggesting that we seek mediocre talent where ever we can find it. The people at the top don’t have to worry about a pay cut due to the number of warm bodies. Look at CEOs, movie stars, sports for examples.

b) How to recognize better programmers? There is a paradox: if your candidate is better than the interviewer, they won’t want to hire on. If they aren’t better, they won’t be hired. So, perhaps the best you can get is people of the same ability as the interviewer.

I have worked with many folks who are here on visas and I do not find them to be any less talented than those with similar experience from the US. No where in my article do I suggest that this is the case.

scabman, I appreciate your thoughtful response, but I don’t understand your objections. Yes, some H1b holders are paid less than there American counterparts–just because it’s illegal doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. As for the job postings, I am simply relating my experience at one company. No where do I suggest that companies should show preference in hiring US workers. Please be more careful before you mischaractize me or my writing.

I do think that many companies struggle with identifying qualified programmers, whether they are local or not. Before I’m willing to beleive there is a nation-wide shortage of programmers, I’d like to see companies do a better job identifying qualified programmers. When you read about the ridiculous interview practices at some companies, it’s easy to see why they think there is such a shortage.

So, how about more discussion about how you can better recognize qualified programmers? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

So, here goes… If you have not known so already from my screen name “I am one of them – the enemy” you so rightly hate.

Hey first of all – lets say hypothetically speaking, if our situation were reversed and I thought that someone from lets say Bangladesh started coming to India and taking away IT jobs there, there would be riots on the streets. So, I understand …

You have every right to your opinions, and frankly I don’t care. I am not trying to change them. But, there are a lot of misconceptions on which you base your opinions on. Let me try and clear some of them. The rest is up to you.

1. H1b candidates are not paid lower salaries, legally they cannot. If you are sure they did you can anonymously complain to the Labor department and fix it.

2. The ridiculous postings you saw are not for bringing in H1b programmers, they are for making the ones already here Permanent Residents (GC). So, wrong there too.

3. I have interviewed and hired people, likewise been interviewed and been hired here in the US, and I have seen no difference in the process between Visa holders and citizens. In fact it is probably harder for Visa holders because for most companies maintaining Visa workers brings added hassles and associated costs. I personally have been rejected by startups after clearing interviews because they did not want to bear the additional costs. You can see posts on craigslist that say Visa holder need not apply.

4. On one level you maybe right – if you believe in the free market, then you know that price is determined by supply and demand. H1B workers increase the supply of IT workers, so from a macro economic perspective it maybe affecting wages. But that is free market for you.

5. The world has changed a lot from the last time you checked. Though most American Companies started out that way, and by that way meaning “American”, today a large percentage of their revenues comes from outside the US. By what logic do you argue that they should show preference in hiring workers in the US.

I have used SlickEdit at work in the past, it was surprising to read such a superficial post from its author. You sound like Hyde in “That 70’s show” – It’s all a conspiracy man.

And to the Fred – dude who commented, where do you get your information from the “The Mars Times”.

1. Indian Government does not pay for BS education, the student’s parents do. And yes when most Indian students come out of college they are financially debt free. You wanna fix that talk to your dad, give him a hug once in a while.

2. Indian Government does not pay for MS education in the US. Well, this’s got to be the most moronic statement I have heard. Firstly, ’cause they don’t have that money, remember India is a poor country. Secondly, even if they had the money they would do it ’cause they get no benefit out of it. Unlike the US India does not tax its citizens worldwide income. I pay taxes and social security here, and India get nada, zippo.

Now if that made you think – phew at least that one good thing. But, sorry to spoil your party. Well still MS education for an Indian student is expensive, so who pays – they get financial aid at least most of them do. But before you rise up in anger again, let me tell you, this aid is not for students from poor countries. It is open to all – write your GRE/GMAT apply to universities, and let the best man win.

… And dont worry the scab labor will one day go home. In the meanwhile try and read “The art of Computer Programming” By Donal E Knuth. That will keep your job safe from any H1B worker.

PS========================================PS
This can get someone fired. Appeared why I tried to post.

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The average total payout is around 95-120K for a new graduate. That is definitely above the country-wide average and around the average salary for West Coast. Defies your theory about H1B visas being used to bring in cheap labor.

I also can’t see a single problem with companies scouting the talent globally.

Little facts about Indian Education Systems.

In India, to get B.S in engineering or Medicine, you have to write an entrance exam. 100s of thousands of people write them. 10% of them get the adimission. You will have to pay for the education. Parents usually take the pain.

Then same things happens for M.S. Here also, the parents pay expenses. Once in a while, there are scholarships available for them at this level. There are cases, where people do this on educational loans too..

Now, in america, what I notice is most of the teens spend their time on entertainment like video games and sports. I am not saying they should not..They should, but should give preference to education first. Then comes entertainment. That’s what is missing here. Citizens of U.S.A have good resources and opportunities. But, are under utlizing them.

I did my M.S. here on education loan, and paid off responsibly after living a stingy life in one year. I got a decent job and not to mention, got some patents for company which was again founded by Indians. This company is now employing people all over the world and created thousands of jobs in U.S.

One other question that comes to my mind is why companies should pay more salary for programmers. Any one with programming skills can do that. Or they can be learned on duty. Did you ever notice how much a mechanical, electrical or a civil engineer gets paid.

Consider the average H1B Indian programmer. His BS in Computer Science was paid for by the Indian Government in India. His Masters, typically from a middle tier U.S. university, was paid for by the Indian government. Then, he gets out of school with no student loans and competes with U.S. graduates at a significant advantage.

Corporations are lobbying so hard for H1B slots because they are significantly cheaper to hire. The corporations actively cheat the inadequate safeguards that are in place to prevent the H1B workers from displacing U.S. workers.

H1B should not be expanded, it should be abolished and all the scab labor imported from the rest of the world should go home.

If you could be any animal, which one would you be?

this was my first interview for a programmer job right after college. Being stumped I replied Tiger; because he likes to take control?

before leaving I askt the interviewer the same question and he said chimpanzee; because they effectively use the tools they have. Tools being sticks.

“Maybe we are better off having more H-1b visas and taking lower wages here in the US, then having high wages and no jobs.”