Comments on: 007… Licensed to Program http://blog.slickedit.com/2007/07/007%e2%80%a6-licensed-to-program/ "Hello World" - The SlickEdit Developer Blog Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:18:34 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: JT Wenting http://blog.slickedit.com/2007/07/007%e2%80%a6-licensed-to-program/comment-page-1/#comment-90 JT Wenting Fri, 27 Jul 2007 07:04:40 +0000 http://blog.slickedit.com/?p=62#comment-90 "Let’s compare this with civil engineering. Most civil engineering jobs require a license." Not here... If you have the right diplomas (or can claim enough work experience) you can get the job. It's the same with programming. If you can show the right credentials you get the job. And any company looking for hyperspecialists either get what they deserve when they don't do thorough screening or will have to count on needing to do some training of their own. How would that "licensing" be done anyway in a rapidly changing landscape? Would I need a separate license to use EJB2, EJB3, Spring, and every other thing I list on my resume? Or would a single license cover it all whether I used it or not? If the latter, how would things be different from what they are today (except creating more bureaucracy and increasing cost for individuals and corporations alike)? “Let’s compare this with civil engineering. Most civil engineering jobs require a license.” Not here… If you have the right diplomas (or can claim enough work experience) you can get the job.
It’s the same with programming. If you can show the right credentials you get the job. And any company looking for hyperspecialists either get what they deserve when they don’t do thorough screening or will have to count on needing to do some training of their own.

How would that “licensing” be done anyway in a rapidly changing landscape?
Would I need a separate license to use EJB2, EJB3, Spring, and every other thing I list on my resume?
Or would a single license cover it all whether I used it or not?
If the latter, how would things be different from what they are today (except creating more bureaucracy and increasing cost for individuals and corporations alike)?

]]> By: Scott H http://blog.slickedit.com/2007/07/007%e2%80%a6-licensed-to-program/comment-page-1/#comment-89 Scott H Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:51:41 +0000 http://blog.slickedit.com/?p=62#comment-89 Great comments, thanks for the responses. I think Rick really nailed something when he commented about the recruiters being a problem. <a href="http://blog.doylecentral.com/?p=14" rel="nofollow">doylecentral</a> wrote a great blog post about his interview process and <a href="http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000073.html" rel="nofollow">Joel Spolsky</a> shared some of his techniques. Unfortunately, the burden of identifying good programmers is almost made worse for hiring companies by the recruiting industry, which embellishes unqualified programmers' resumes in hopes of yet another money-making placement. I don't know if licensing is a real solution or not. I do know that the certification process that exists now is just another money making scheme, as others have noted. And the recruiting process mainly helps two people; the recruiters, and bad programmers who get "recruited" for jobs they aren't qualified for. The good programmers and the hiring companies lose out, because they have to deal with a flooded programmer pool. So how do you fix that? I don't know for sure, but licensing for core competency in a field someone claims on their resume might be a start. Great comments, thanks for the responses. I think Rick really nailed something when he commented about the recruiters being a problem. doylecentral wrote a great blog post about his interview process and Joel Spolsky shared some of his techniques. Unfortunately, the burden of identifying good programmers is almost made worse for hiring companies by the recruiting industry, which embellishes unqualified programmers’ resumes in hopes of yet another money-making placement.

I don’t know if licensing is a real solution or not. I do know that the certification process that exists now is just another money making scheme, as others have noted. And the recruiting process mainly helps two people; the recruiters, and bad programmers who get “recruited” for jobs they aren’t qualified for. The good programmers and the hiring companies lose out, because they have to deal with a flooded programmer pool.

So how do you fix that? I don’t know for sure, but licensing for core competency in a field someone claims on their resume might be a start.

]]> By: doylecentral http://blog.slickedit.com/2007/07/007%e2%80%a6-licensed-to-program/comment-page-1/#comment-88 doylecentral Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:59:39 +0000 http://blog.slickedit.com/?p=62#comment-88 Sure... You could do that. But still there are very bad engineers out there who are certified. That's why roads and plumbing break down. You made me spawn a blog post <a href="http://blog.doylecentral.com/?p=14" title="Licensing Programmers to do work doylecentral" rel="nofollow">Comments</a> Sure… You could do that. But still there are very bad engineers out there who are certified. That’s why roads and plumbing break down.

You made me spawn a blog post Comments

]]> By: Rick http://blog.slickedit.com/2007/07/007%e2%80%a6-licensed-to-program/comment-page-1/#comment-87 Rick Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:54:11 +0000 http://blog.slickedit.com/?p=62#comment-87 In my experience, the biggest part of the problem is the recruiters. Programmers are rarely so desperate as list skills they hardly possess, knowing they will be found out soon enough. Recruiters however have no such scruples, for them it's a matter of 'selling' a candidate before a competitor fills the position. I've never met a recruiter who didn't attempt to get me to pad my resume to match the position. The conversation you described is the standard, and as a programmer you have to learn that it only sends one message: "You're not actually a match, but I think I can sell you anyway and get my commission." If the company where you are placed figures it out, YOU will be the liar, after all, it was YOUR resume, and YOU misrepresented yourself. Most forms of certification have so far only made the problem worse. If there's one thing employers have found out the hard way is that half the candidates with impressive certificates and education can't code their way out of a paper bag. In my experience, the biggest part of the problem is the recruiters. Programmers are rarely so desperate as list skills they hardly possess, knowing they will be found out soon enough. Recruiters however have no such scruples, for them it’s a matter of ‘selling’ a candidate before a competitor fills the position.

I’ve never met a recruiter who didn’t attempt to get me to pad my resume to match the position. The conversation you described is the standard, and as a programmer you have to learn that it only sends one message: “You’re not actually a match, but I think I can sell you anyway and get my commission.” If the company where you are placed figures it out, YOU will be the liar, after all, it was YOUR resume, and YOU misrepresented yourself.

Most forms of certification have so far only made the problem worse. If there’s one thing employers have found out the hard way is that half the candidates with impressive certificates and education can’t code their way out of a paper bag.

]]> By: Ingo http://blog.slickedit.com/2007/07/007%e2%80%a6-licensed-to-program/comment-page-1/#comment-86 Ingo Thu, 26 Jul 2007 10:49:33 +0000 http://blog.slickedit.com/?p=62#comment-86 Great article If it wouldn't be so time consuming interviews would be entertaining! I had one person who put about every acronym on his CV. He did however not even know the meaning of half of them save had ever worked with them. Great article
If it wouldn’t be so time consuming interviews would be entertaining!
I had one person who put about every acronym on his CV. He did however not even know the meaning of half of them save had ever worked with them.

]]> By: spanky http://blog.slickedit.com/2007/07/007%e2%80%a6-licensed-to-program/comment-page-1/#comment-85 spanky Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:19:45 +0000 http://blog.slickedit.com/?p=62#comment-85 Who would certify the certifiers? Have the government do it you say? Surely you don't mean that! Can you image them coming up with a test for Perl, Ruby, Java, Lisp flavor A, Lisp flavor Bubblegum, blah, blah, blah,... ? Truly? Better yet! Maybe they could implement a new language that includes the constructs all other languages (call it OmegaX maybe). Wait, but then why would we need any of the old ones? Oh, that's right, we're human (meaning we're mostly too stupid, stubborn, and prideful). Anyway, that's what the marketplace is for. If a company is too stupid to hire qualified individuals, for any position, (or weed out the ones that slip through the hiring process), too bad. They go away. As they should. Anyway, lofty goal, but, if it ever succeeds... well, I'll probably go back to framing houses for a living. You need an uncertified carpenter to frame your house for you? ;) Who would certify the certifiers? Have the government do it you say? Surely you don’t mean that! Can you image them coming up with a test for Perl, Ruby, Java, Lisp flavor A, Lisp flavor Bubblegum, blah, blah, blah,… ? Truly? Better yet! Maybe they could implement a new language that includes the constructs all other languages (call it OmegaX maybe). Wait, but then why would we need any of the old ones? Oh, that’s right, we’re human (meaning we’re mostly too stupid, stubborn, and prideful).

Anyway, that’s what the marketplace is for. If a company is too stupid to hire qualified individuals, for any position, (or weed out the ones that slip through the hiring process), too bad. They go away. As they should.

Anyway, lofty goal, but, if it ever succeeds… well, I’ll probably go back to framing houses for a living. You need an uncertified carpenter to frame your house for you? ;)

]]> By: Robert Dempsey http://blog.slickedit.com/2007/07/007%e2%80%a6-licensed-to-program/comment-page-1/#comment-84 Robert Dempsey Wed, 25 Jul 2007 21:14:25 +0000 http://blog.slickedit.com/?p=62#comment-84 Unless I am mistaken, the purpose of a college degree in computer science is to provide a basic understanding of programming and programming practices. Having said that, my CS program used C, Microsoft C++, Java, and VB.NET. I know others who did their entire program in Java, and yet others who could pick the language they wanted to use, as long as they solved the problem at hand. As for certifications, I have met many a paper credentialed person who was practically worthless. They could pass a test, and that is it. Fortunately, that was not status quo. In my opinion and experience, which is by no means as extensive as that of others in the industry, the best way to test someone skills is to pair them with a proven developer and get them working on a project. When push comes to shove (so to speak), the wheat quickly gets separated from the chaff. It is the domain of the project manager or manager to make sure that a client doesn't get burned in the process. Unless I am mistaken, the purpose of a college degree in computer science is to provide a basic understanding of programming and programming practices. Having said that, my CS program used C, Microsoft C++, Java, and VB.NET. I know others who did their entire program in Java, and yet others who could pick the language they wanted to use, as long as they solved the problem at hand.

As for certifications, I have met many a paper credentialed person who was practically worthless. They could pass a test, and that is it. Fortunately, that was not status quo.

In my opinion and experience, which is by no means as extensive as that of others in the industry, the best way to test someone skills is to pair them with a proven developer and get them working on a project. When push comes to shove (so to speak), the wheat quickly gets separated from the chaff.

It is the domain of the project manager or manager to make sure that a client doesn’t get burned in the process.

]]> By: bloid http://blog.slickedit.com/2007/07/007%e2%80%a6-licensed-to-program/comment-page-1/#comment-83 bloid Wed, 25 Jul 2007 20:16:40 +0000 http://blog.slickedit.com/?p=62#comment-83 @Ze3U: Hahaha :) @Ze3U: Hahaha :)

]]> By: Ze3U http://blog.slickedit.com/2007/07/007%e2%80%a6-licensed-to-program/comment-page-1/#comment-82 Ze3U Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:54:18 +0000 http://blog.slickedit.com/?p=62#comment-82 Isn't that what certification is supposed to be? And would you really like to institutionalize that scam any more than it is already? Say you're about to interview 2 candidates for a position. One is a MCSE (or SCJP, SKAJUW etc.), the other has no certification. Before you meet them, don't you assume that the one with no certifications is probably going to be better? I know I do. Isn’t that what certification is supposed to be? And would you really like to institutionalize that scam any more than it is already? Say you’re about to interview 2 candidates for a position. One is a MCSE (or SCJP, SKAJUW etc.), the other has no certification. Before you meet them, don’t you assume that the one with no certifications is probably going to be better? I know I do.

]]> By: Rob Crowther http://blog.slickedit.com/2007/07/007%e2%80%a6-licensed-to-program/comment-page-1/#comment-81 Rob Crowther Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:51:46 +0000 http://blog.slickedit.com/?p=62#comment-81 I don't think it's going to solve everything, because developers are only part of the problem. Quality is always set against time and resources, and the last two are more important to most businesses. Also, I'd be concerned about holding up an MCSE as proving anyone is a good developer. I don’t think it’s going to solve everything, because developers are only part of the problem. Quality is always set against time and resources, and the last two are more important to most businesses. Also, I’d be concerned about holding up an MCSE as proving anyone is a good developer.

]]> By: bloid http://blog.slickedit.com/2007/07/007%e2%80%a6-licensed-to-program/comment-page-1/#comment-80 bloid Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:16:46 +0000 http://blog.slickedit.com/?p=62#comment-80 I don't believe this would help... There are still professions that require a license (gas fitting, electrical rewiring, etc) that get by doing shoddy work. If anything this usually just stops people doing odd jobs themselves (under the guise of "safety"), and forces people to pay extortionate prices for what is still substandard work... I don’t believe this would help… There are still professions that require a license (gas fitting, electrical rewiring, etc) that get by doing shoddy work. If anything this usually just stops people doing odd jobs themselves (under the guise of “safety”), and forces people to pay extortionate prices for what is still substandard work…

]]> By: Charlieb http://blog.slickedit.com/2007/07/007%e2%80%a6-licensed-to-program/comment-page-1/#comment-79 Charlieb Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:52:22 +0000 http://blog.slickedit.com/?p=62#comment-79 Wouldn't this lead to certified vs uncertified software? How do you think this would impact the open source world? Wouldn’t this lead to certified vs uncertified software? How do you think this would impact the open source world?

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